Elmo Taddeo (Parachute Technology): The Power of Letting Go & Delegating
Title: Elmo Taddeo (Parachute Technology): The Power of Letting Go & Delegating
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Elmo Taddeo, CEO of Parachute Technology, is here to share his journey from a psychology major to running a thriving managed service provider in California, pulling in $11.5 million annually with a team of about 70. The chat dives deep into the transition many tech owners struggle with: moving from the nitty-gritty of engineering to the bigger picture of business ownership. Elno's got wisdom to offer about scaling a company, the importance of delegation, and how to shake off the 'do-it-all' mentality that so many of us cling to. He talks about the challenges of hiring and letting go, plus how essential it is to surround yourself with the right people who can help carry the load. From his perspective, the journey of an MSP owner isn't just about tech; it's about people, culture, and finding that sweet spot of growth without losing your mind.
Takeaways:
- In today's episode, we dive deep into Elmo Taddeo's journey building a successful MSP and the lessons learned along the way.
- Elmo emphasizes the importance of transitioning from a technical mindset to a business owner mindset for MSP growth, and where most owners get stuck
- Hiring your first employee is a pivotal moment for MSP owners, marking the shift from solo to team.
- Delegation is vital; learning to let go and trust others is key for scaling your business effectively.
- Finding the right business framework like EOS can create structure and accountability in your organization, making life a lot easier.
- Understanding your company's growth stage helps in making strategic hires and ensuring you're not overstaffed for your revenue.
Transcript
Foreign welcome to the MSP Owner Podcast.
Speaker A:Today I'm excited to welcome Elno Taddeo, the CEO and co owner of Parachute, a thriving managed service provider based in San Raon, California.
Speaker A:They do roughly $11.5 million of annual revenue and have about 70 employees.
Speaker A:A challenge a lot of MSP owners face is getting out of the engineer or technical mindset and transition into thinking like an owner.
Speaker A:My gut tells me Elmo has figured this part out given the size and scope of his business, and probably has some knowledge to drop around this aspect.
Speaker A:And in today's episode we're definitely going to be diving into lessons he's learned while scaling his current company, Parachute.
Speaker A:And then also we'll probably touch on the value of, of peer groups, I think a huge topic that I think everyone could learn from.
Speaker A:So Elmo, thank you for joining me on the MSP Owner Podcast.
Speaker B:Ben, thanks for having me.
Speaker B:It's a pleasure.
Speaker A:Excited to jump in with you.
Speaker A:What I like to do is typically jump into your kind of where you came from, where did you grow up and how did that transition into you getting into the IT services space.
Speaker A:I saw maybe a stint at the FBI, which was pretty interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, that usually attracts people's eyes.
Speaker B:You know, I'm actually I, you know, I live out here.
Speaker B:My MSP is out here in Northern California and Sarah in the Bay Area, but I'm not from here.
Speaker B:I'm originally from, born and raised in Philadelphia, right outside of Indel county.
Speaker B:And so I spent my first 25 years for half my life on the east coast in Philly.
Speaker B:Still bleed green for those that really care about sports, but I am.
Speaker B:If you grew up in Philadelphia, it's really hard not to be at least a Philadelphia sports fan to some extent.
Speaker B:But I went to school back there, you know, got all my, all my education there.
Speaker B:I went to Villanova and that's actually where I met my wife.
Speaker B:But oddly enough, Ben, you know, staying on the business side, I, you know, as a psychology major, an education background, so didn't go in it.
Speaker B:I'm not the typical engineering background.
Speaker B:I'm not even one of those people that said hey, you know, from birth, you know, I or young child, I like to tinker on computers.
Speaker B:I really wasn't that type of person.
Speaker B:Much more of an extrovert, much more of a kind of a sales oriented person from a business perspective.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But what I found very in probably the early 90s, mid-90s, was the fact that technology, especially on the service support side, great technicians, something that I felt like most people can learn, but what was lacking in the support service area was really that customer service aspect.
Speaker B:So when I was in college, I worked a lot of different types of jobs, but when I got out, my first job was actually in sales for a tech startup.
Speaker B:So it was about mid-90s 98, let's call it.
Speaker B:And while in that startup space, really wanted to learn more about networking in the back end of how things work because I thought there could be an opportunity for myself there if I can tie the two together with what I knew were my more natural skills and then just get some really strong education around backend networking, systems administration type work, we can see where it goes.
Speaker B:And it did.
Speaker B:It took me for a few years, just maybe 7, 10 years working in IT, mostly in legal industry.
Speaker A:You were an administrator there, an employee, or did you end up owning that company at some point?
Speaker B:You know, I was an employee for a large law firm.
Speaker B:Kind of just learning the ropes, you know, learn how this whole thing works.
Speaker B:And you're working with attorneys, you know that they're very demanding, but rightfully so, their time is worth a lot of money.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So I learned really quickly that, you know, support was a big aspect of what we're trying to accomplish.
Speaker B:And so when I was in actually California, my first job in California was at another law firm.
Speaker B:I'll never forget.
Speaker B:It's a good story because about my third week on the job, my manager told me to slow down.
Speaker B:I go, what do you mean slow down?
Speaker B:And she goes, you're resetting expectations in this department and not.
Speaker B:And she goes, it's a good thing, but it's not good for our department.
Speaker B:Meaning that, you know, people are picking up the phone, I just go, run and help them, you know, and.
Speaker B:And she goes, look, the rest of the.
Speaker B:Now they're going to sit and I'm setting the bar higher.
Speaker B:So she's like.
Speaker B:So I'm like, are you telling me to like, slow.
Speaker B:Literally slow down?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:She's like, yeah, that's exactly what I want.
Speaker B:So I kind of chuckled out loud.
Speaker B:I'm like, okay.
Speaker B:I'm like, it's kind of this.
Speaker B:Is this California?
Speaker B:Is this what it's like different between East Coast, West Coast?
Speaker B:Wasn't quite sure.
Speaker A:What did it end up being?
Speaker A:Was it East Coast, west coast thing, or was it company?
Speaker B:I think it is.
Speaker B:I think it's partly my personality.
Speaker B:It's like, you know, coming from that higher pace and actually it's kind of nice.
Speaker B:Like, hey, it's not that people didn't want to be treated the same.
Speaker B:It was just a matter of how I responded.
Speaker B:Is more of an Elmo problem, I realized, than anything else.
Speaker B:And I learned to just, hey, just hey one, be a little more patient with things and not have to move at 90 miles an hour.
Speaker B:And obviously I wanted to make sure that I was doing a good job in my company.
Speaker B:And I was.
Speaker B:But what that led me to do is I ended up.
Speaker B:You know, there's a few twists and turns in my backstory, Ben, which was one, I got recruited by the first U.S.
Speaker B: ork overseas, and that was in: Speaker B:I actually got the position.
Speaker B: know if many people remember: Speaker B:And lo and behold, I was supposed to report to Washington D.C.
Speaker B:in May.
Speaker B:And I took a few months off.
Speaker B:I was like, all right, that's it, that's an end of my California stint and now I'm going to go on this career.
Speaker B:And the position was an IT manager overseas at US Embassy.
Speaker B:So my job was going to be to manage IT infrastructure and the people there at US Embassies.
Speaker B:So didn't know where I was going to go.
Speaker B:But that was the whole point of going for six months in D.C.
Speaker B:is to, you know, find out where I'm going to go with it, then do linguistics training and such.
Speaker B:Quit my job, left my apartment, kind of traveled for a little bit here in California.
Speaker A:So why, why did you want to transition into going abroad?
Speaker A:I mean, that's such a stark, that's a stark change from working at an in house company telling people, telling you you need to slow down to now I'm moving, potentially moving across the world, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, so it's a good point.
Speaker B:I, I just, the way I see myself and what I'm capable of is I don't want to limit myself to just this is my career in a law firm doing it or whatever that may be.
Speaker B:I always, I'm one of these types of people that likes to continually push myself.
Speaker B:And there's, there's a quote that I like to kind of just mention.
Speaker B:It's kind of like what got you to Egypt will not get you into the promised land.
Speaker B:Meaning that the same methods and behaviors or mindsets that allow you to survive or succeed, the challenge situation is not going to get you to where you want to go.
Speaker B:And that's kind of how I kind of frame on my life and everything.
Speaker B:And it really applies really to every owner that's in an msp, you know what got you to, you know, even a 1 million or 2 million dollars is not going to get you the 5, 6 million.
Speaker B:It's not going to get to 10 or 12.
Speaker B:And even for me now where I'm at, it's not the same things that got me here today are not going to get me to the 20, 30 million.
Speaker B:So constantly having to redevelop yourself and that's kind of what I've, what I was doing even at a younger age, in my mid-20s, was trying to constantly push myself, find my greatest, my, my true potential.
Speaker B:And I'm still on that journey.
Speaker B:We are as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker B:But my potential back then I was like, hey, this could take me where I thought at the time I was going to go.
Speaker A:Do you think that was, was that just innate in you?
Speaker A:Because that, that thing from what I've seen is some people don't figure that out until later in life, like until they've had more experience and they've, they've kind of learned that lesson.
Speaker A:Was that just innate in you?
Speaker A:Like that drive, the wanting to get better, the wanting to achieve and do more with the time that we have?
Speaker B:Great question, Ben.
Speaker B:I think it's in all of us, in every human being.
Speaker B:But you're to your point, Ben, a lot of people don't know how to unlock it.
Speaker B:They don't, you know, and sometimes it's later in life, sometimes it's early, earlier in life and I think sometimes your experiences will help you unlock it.
Speaker B:And my experiences at an earlier age helped me unlock kind of what, what my potential can be.
Speaker B:And I'm still trying to, I'll be honest, I'm still trying to figure it out, you know, but I think we all are, we're all trying to reach for our greatest potential.
Speaker B:But I, I, I do believe at a younger age I was maybe just kind of born that way or just maybe my, my experiences allowed me to kind of open up some doors and say, hey, you can keep going further here.
Speaker B:And yeah, I do think, I think it's in everybody though, Ben, I really do.
Speaker B:They just need to open up their eyes and open up the doors for it and be open and willing to it.
Speaker B:So, so I did and you know, I was planning on leaving and got a call and said, hey, unfortunately due to budgetary cuts in the US State Department, we have to put your position on indefinitely, hope on indefinite hold.
Speaker B:So, you know, here I am, a 20 something young, young man trying to figure out his way in the world.
Speaker B:I'm like, whoa.
Speaker B:Like, my entire.
Speaker B:My entire life was about to go down this path.
Speaker B:And something that happened around the world that, you know, again, I never felt like it was gonna have a direct impact on my life.
Speaker B:Just completely course corrected and looking back on is the best thing to happen.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:100% the best thing happened.
Speaker B:Didn't probably think of it in real time, but absolutely what allowed me to do was one, it allowed me first and foremost to re.
Speaker B:Engage with my now wife, which we've been married for almost 20 years now.
Speaker B:We have three kids, beautiful life, you know, couldn't have done even half the things that I thought possible without her at least helping and pushing me.
Speaker B:Two, went back to graduate school, got my mba.
Speaker B:I was like, time to learn business at a much deeper level.
Speaker B:And then three, during.
Speaker B:And my MBA program is when I started to write my business plan for what now sits today as my managed service business.
Speaker B:So that all happened due to some circumstances.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:George W.
Speaker B:Bush at the time said, there's budgetary cuts.
Speaker B:We got to, you know, fund the war in Iraq.
Speaker B:Boom.
Speaker B:And here's.
Speaker B:Here's my small little piece of the war life in this world and how the impact was.
Speaker B:So, lo and behold, those three things all kind of took off on their own.
Speaker B: And that was about early: Speaker B:And you mentioned the FBI.
Speaker B:This kind of does dovetail into it, and.
Speaker B:Which was when I was in graduate school.
Speaker B:I was getting recruited first, actually, local pd due to a marketing project that we did.
Speaker B:We end up.
Speaker B:My little group of four won an award for that.
Speaker B:And so SFPD came down, met them.
Speaker B:They knew I had a background in the State Department, things like that, or that's where I was going.
Speaker B:Um, asked, hey, any interest in going to the police department?
Speaker B:I'm like, no, it's really not my thing.
Speaker B:Um, then next thing I know, the DEA was reaching out to me, like, nope, not my thing either.
Speaker B:Then the FBI kind of knocked on my door.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker B:And honestly, again, going back to this is also after 9, 11.
Speaker B:Growing up on the east coast, had some.
Speaker B:Some friends that perished.
Speaker B:And, you know, so it was just near.
Speaker B:It's like, what can I do more for my.
Speaker B:My country?
Speaker B:And, you know, I thought to myself, all right, I'll throw my hat in the ring.
Speaker B:Knowing that there's probably no way I'm gonna.
Speaker B:Excuse me.
Speaker B:Get the position.
Speaker B:But lo and behold, it took about four and a half years then.
Speaker B:But I Kept passing all of their milestones, everything from, like, physical fitness tests, you know, academics, there's like a GMAT test, things along those lines, polygraphs and such.
Speaker B:And kept passing them.
Speaker B:And, yeah, I got.
Speaker B:I got.
Speaker B:I got accepted.
Speaker B:But in that four and a half years, as you can imagine, in your early 30s, life really starts happening.
Speaker B:Um, you know, I got married.
Speaker B:I already had my first kid.
Speaker B:My business was doing excellent.
Speaker B:Now, granted, I was a lone wolf, I like to call myself back then as an msp, which many of us started in that kind of fashion.
Speaker B:But it was an interesting journey because I decided to leave my business.
Speaker B:And I knew, and I knew it at the time.
Speaker B:Bless my wife for allowing me to do it, because I knew my ego was going to get the best of me, is exactly what I told her.
Speaker B:I go, if I don't do this, I'll regret it the rest of my life.
Speaker B:But knowing that it's probably not the right thing to do at this point in our life, because the salary that I was making living in San Francisco, we're living in Pacific Heights, doing both very.
Speaker B:Both of us are doing very well to a salary under $50,000 a year to start at the FBI.
Speaker B:So my old wife said, I'll follow you.
Speaker B:I'm on board.
Speaker B:Let's go.
Speaker B:So she quit her job.
Speaker B:I had someone running my business while I left because I still needed that extra income, especially with one child.
Speaker B:And then we had a daughter about 15 months later.
Speaker B:So anyhow, went to Quantico.
Speaker B:Was only there a few weeks, and I knew it while I was in there, this isn't the right place for me at this time.
Speaker B:And a lot of it really had to do with the fact that I was not going to be able to live the life that I wanted.
Speaker B:And I didn't want to tell myself that beforehand.
Speaker B:Now, if I was single and not married.
Speaker B:I'm probably not having this conversation with you, Ben, right now.
Speaker B:There's no doubt in my mind.
Speaker B:But what I realize is the FBI and the position as an agent and the discipline that there's five different disciplines in the agency is cybercrime, because my.
Speaker B:With my background in business and then it.
Speaker B:But it was just not what I.
Speaker B:Not the right timing in my life for that position.
Speaker B:And so very hard decision I had to make, but kind of decided to resign, come back into the private sector.
Speaker B:Best thing I did again, it's like, you know, at the time, I really struggled with it, Ben.
Speaker B:It was a very, very hard decision because I was grappling with my Ego.
Speaker B:And it's like, you can't quit.
Speaker B:You can't, you know, you got this far.
Speaker B:So many people would be just honored to have this position.
Speaker B:These things like that was going through my head and the reality was, is my priority shifted to my wife and my child.
Speaker B:It wasn't about me anymore.
Speaker B:And I needed to come to grips with that and I did.
Speaker B:And I came back into the private sector and that's when I kind of decided to like, all right, let's buckle the, let's buckle up.
Speaker B:Let's blow this thing out.
Speaker B:And so the path then over the last decade or, or more has been growing this business.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And it's been a journey, but it's got me here today and not quite sure where, you know, I kind of have an idea where I want to go after this, but.
Speaker B:But we've done very well as an organization to even get us to this level that we're at today.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it sounds like once you came back into the business, you're like, all right, now I'm full steam in the business and you're dedicating it.
Speaker A:You've got your family around you, the support, and now you've, now you're gonna be focused on growing the business.
Speaker A:So if you were to like, break up your business growth and because of your size, I'm sure that there are step functions that you experienced along the growth path.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:If you were to kind of break them up, what are those natural breaking points that you found when, you know, I guess the way that you put it is things, things that got you there, didn't get there, get you to the next level.
Speaker A:What were those breaking points?
Speaker A:I've always found those really interesting, especially from a growth perspective.
Speaker B:Well, I mean, I think it starts with, you know, when you're a one man band or a lone wolf, you know, making that first hire, you sure.
Speaker B:Ben, you've, you, you as well are aware of that many other owners in the MSP space.
Speaker B:Making that first hire is a critical one.
Speaker B:And then learning how to delegate, it's a skill.
Speaker B:After a while, you have to learn how to do it because you feel like, I can do it and I can do it better than anybody else, which is probably true.
Speaker B:But at the end of the day, you're not gonna be able to scale your organization until you let go.
Speaker B:And that's an EOS saying, let go of the vine.
Speaker B:You need to learn to let go.
Speaker B:But that doesn't mean just, hey, all right, take this and go.
Speaker B:You have to put process procedure around things.
Speaker B:So you're training the next person behind you that they're going to do it the same way, if not better.
Speaker B:That is something I've learned to do, is get out of other people's way.
Speaker B:Now, I know I'm jumping a little bit ahead of you, Ben, but in a timeline perspective.
Speaker B:But there are many times that people have this unbelievable potential, but we are the ones blocking it from really kind of busting through.
Speaker B:So now what I try to do is just give guidance, obviously, structure around it.
Speaker B:And EOS is one of those platforms, and I wish I did earlier in my career, you know, if I had to go back in time, Ben, to those early days, to your point, that would be something I would strongly recommend.
Speaker B:Any new ES MSP owner, you know.
Speaker A:Implement a business framework like EOS Entrepreneurial Operating System to.
Speaker A:To help create a framework so that you can it.
Speaker A:And I kind of think about it as it's kind of there to help us be better owners, us be better visionaries, and then us be able to translate that vision to everyone else so that everyone's in the same boat, rowing in the right direction.
Speaker B:Oh, you said it very well, Ben.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:That's exactly it.
Speaker B:It doesn't have to be EOs.
Speaker B:There are other business methodologies you can implement.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Potato, potato.
Speaker B:But it gives a framework.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker C:Hi, I'm Ben Tigelar, the host of MSP Owner podcast and the CEO of Datatel, an IT managed service provider with 35 employees.
Speaker C:The mission of this podcast is simple.
Speaker C:To have authentic conversations with IT owners about their journey, how it started, the challenges they faced, and where they're going next.
Speaker C:Every episode, I personally walk away with a new actionable item to strengthen my own business.
Speaker C:But a quick word about my company, Datatel.
Speaker C:We are actively acquiring MSPs who align with our service and culture.
Speaker C:So if your company is generating between 1 and $10 million of revenue, I want to talk to you.
Speaker C:But wait, you're probably thinking, why me and why Datatel?
Speaker C:First is, I get you.
Speaker C:I understand the challenges MSP owners face.
Speaker C:Being one myself, feeling overworked, overwhelmed, constantly being on call, struggling to bring in new business.
Speaker C:I have the solutions and people in place to address these pain points.
Speaker C:Second is culture.
Speaker C:We run our business on EOS Entrepreneurial Operating System, which has been transformative for our employees and clients alike.
Speaker C:I believe that building a great company comes down to finding and retaining great people who are in the right seats.
Speaker C:Everything else is noise.
Speaker C:If any of this resonates, it probably means we're a fit and we should be having a conversation.
Speaker C:Until then, let's get back to the show.
Speaker A:So the delegation part, I find that really interesting because I struggle with that as well, and I think that everyone does.
Speaker A:And sometimes I'll be like, oh, I'm good.
Speaker A:I'm doing this for a good couple months.
Speaker A:And then I'll look at myself and I'll be like, wait, what are you doing?
Speaker A:And then I'll have to be like, you know, it's kind of like this natural control instinct in myself, and then I'm always having to, you know, taper it back.
Speaker A:So, like, do you experience those, you know, potential relapses or do you feel yourself doing it?
Speaker A:You catch yourself, or how do you manage that?
Speaker B:Yeah, it took a while, like years to kind of feel comfortable with it then.
Speaker B:But the truth is, it's okay to let people fail.
Speaker B:And I think that's.
Speaker B:We're kind of wired as owners.
Speaker B:Like, you can't fail.
Speaker B:And that's how we learn is by failure.
Speaker B:And so how would I expect some of my employees today to learn if they're not going to fail?
Speaker B:So I have to be accepting of it.
Speaker B:Hopefully, though, I'm putting them in a position where it's a safe place to fail.
Speaker B:But the truth is, there's been times when I've had employees fail and, you know, there were some consequences to it, whether it was like a lost account or whatever, you have it.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:I never.
Speaker B:I really tried to never take the approach to point blank.
Speaker B:I think that's one thing that it's easy.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:That's the easy thing to do.
Speaker B:And as a.
Speaker B:In my opinion, my leadership style is always look in the mirror first.
Speaker B:Always.
Speaker B:What could I have done better to put that employee in a better position so they wouldn't have failed?
Speaker B:And that's where it starts.
Speaker B:It's right there.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of new owners or young owners or new to just running a business, they don't see the world that way.
Speaker B:And they're really the ones blocking themselves or their own true potential and the company's true potential for moving forward.
Speaker A:It's such an important piece where, like, I know people, People talk about it sometimes it just feels like one of those unlocks you figure that point out like this.
Speaker A:Like, I mean, at the end of the day, it comes from, I think, from a place of fear, at least for me, right?
Speaker A:Like the fear that we're not going to be able to deliver on what we promised Fear that, you know, we're not going to achieve this specific thing, that it's not going to turn out the way that I see it in my head.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Translating that.
Speaker A:And so, and, and the fear around that is like what drives it.
Speaker A:And then it manifests in, in, in this control.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's, that's been a, that's been, that's been, that's been interesting, you know, and, and so, so it sounds like the first time you did that was when you had to hire that first employee.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like that's like that first phase and then your team grows, you're a few more employees.
Speaker A:What's like the next, the next hurdle that you, that you run into?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a term that I learned in, in my Evolve peer group, which used to be back in the day htg and it's called curve jumping.
Speaker B:And you know, we all kind of go on this path where we're hoping to up and to the right.
Speaker B:And, and for the most part, if you're doing things well, you will, but you will in order to, you're going to come down.
Speaker B:And in order to come down, you want to make sure you don't go all the way down to that valley.
Speaker B:You want to jump to the next curve.
Speaker B:And so how do you do that?
Speaker B:And so that could be, and by the way, that curve could be anything from like, financially to just operationally to, you know, number of employees you need to hire.
Speaker B:And so again, it's, it becomes more of a skill at some point learning how to jump those curves.
Speaker B:And, and a lot of the ways of doing that is exactly like, you know, what I just mentioned bringing in like a business, some sort of business system and process or maybe sometimes even over hiring at certain times so that you can grow and scale into where you believe the company's gonna go.
Speaker B:It's a little bit of, you gotta put some trust and faith in yourself.
Speaker B:But you probably wouldn't have started the business if you already didn't have that in you.
Speaker B:But you gotta continue to have that in order to scale or depending on what your vision is.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, some people's vision is, hey, they want to get to a certain level and plateau.
Speaker B:That, and that's.
Speaker B:If that's what they want, that's, hey, that's their prerogative.
Speaker B:They can do that.
Speaker B:But in order to get.
Speaker B:At least my journey was, hey, how.
Speaker B:How can I continue to jump a few curves?
Speaker B:You know, and that was everything Ben getting from like, you know, that first million dollars that was a grind.
Speaker B:I was, you know, wearing many hats, right?
Speaker B:Then the next curve was like the two to four million dollars jump.
Speaker B:Okay, what.
Speaker B:What strategic employees do I need to hire that I can start to shed some weight off of my shoulders that will help me get me to that, that next level.
Speaker B:All right, the next one comes.
Speaker B:All right, now it's like that next, like, I call like that 4 to 7 million range.
Speaker B:Okay, like, what do I need to learn here?
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:What resources am I getting?
Speaker B:What tools am I going to need?
Speaker B:What type of clients am I going to need?
Speaker B:Because that's the other part is sometimes too, is like, I don't have any of the clients I had probably when I started, you know, a decade ago.
Speaker B:And the part of this, because, you know, I.
Speaker B:I always took the approach, Ben, revenue is king.
Speaker B:When I was small, you know, I know people are like, oh, my God, you now.
Speaker B:Now I have a whole different philosophy on it, but I.
Speaker B:I don't disagree with my mindset back then because I needed to pay the bills.
Speaker B:That was my mind.
Speaker A:You gotta get to the first hill in order to get to the second one, right?
Speaker B:So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Today people are like, you need to spend, you know, 250 on seat.
Speaker B:I'm like, when I'm four people, I can't be charging $250 a seat because also, truth is, I'm not selling the same set of value.
Speaker B:I can't offer the value with four people versus 70, you know, so I have to sell things at a lower price.
Speaker B:But also be transparent in what my offering is.
Speaker B:But what.
Speaker B:What in return occurs is you get a lower maturity organization that you're working with, and then you start to either outgrow them or they outgrow you, which happens, you know, and that helps.
Speaker B:Kind of.
Speaker B:You're on that journey all along is like you're trying to continually increase your operational maturity level by also, though, mirroring yourself with the clients that you have that have the same maturity level as you do.
Speaker B:And that's a balance.
Speaker B:And you shed some along the way, or they shed you sometimes along the way.
Speaker B:It's just part of the process.
Speaker B:And that still happens even today.
Speaker A:Can you go into one of those losses that comes into your mind that was particularly painful and like, why that happened and why it was good for the business over the long run?
Speaker A:I assume it's good for the business.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker B:There's a client that comes to mind.
Speaker B:I mean, we were probably at the time, 15, 15 employees.
Speaker B:Let's call it.
Speaker B:And most of our clients were in that three seven thousand dollar range, maybe five thousand dollars a month range.
Speaker B:We had an account that came in was about 25,000amonth.
Speaker B:So we're reaching at this point.
Speaker B:We knew it.
Speaker B:But you know, I remember at the time talking with my coo and we're like, this is how we get stronger.
Speaker B:We let's, we need to play up.
Speaker B:And I mean, I was fully involved in that account, so was my coo.
Speaker B:Like, we were just all hands in.
Speaker B:Because part of it is we wanted to learn how to be a good MSP for that 20,000, $25,000 account.
Speaker B:Not the, we already got it and figured out the 5,000 accounts, right?
Speaker B:So, so we had to play up and we were, we had them for about five years and honestly I thought we did a good job, but they were, honestly, they were more mature than us and they needed, they also brought things, they wanted to bring things in house, but they came from an MSP that was even smaller than us.
Speaker B:So it's not as if they weren't familiar with the MSP space, but they got to a point where we could not keep up with them.
Speaker B:And so there's just an imbalance them leaving.
Speaker B:But it helped propel us to then take on more $8, $10,000 accounts, things along those lines because we got better at our craft.
Speaker B:And I really, I, I compliment them because they, they helped sharpen our own iron and that got us, you know, helped us move this along our path.
Speaker A:But in the moment when you, when you're losing it, right?
Speaker A:Does it feel different than the story that you just painted?
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Because also when you lose a $30,000 account at that size, you, you feel it.
Speaker B:I don't feel it as much now.
Speaker B:You know, we're big enough where we can absorb that and weather the storm is what I like to say now, back then, it's a tornado and so sometimes it's like, all right, well, how do we go about this?
Speaker B:Well, I guess maybe I got to take home less pay, you know, I mean there's, those are real conversations that have to be had and, but you got to believe in yourself that you'll get right back to where you need to go.
Speaker B:And the biggest thing is, and I've always had this philosophy is it's all about sales.
Speaker B:You gotta continue to just bring in sales.
Speaker B:Um, if you're not selling, you're dying.
Speaker B:I mean, it's just that simple.
Speaker B:And in any business or industry, I feel that's the case.
Speaker B:And it's not to sell just any customer.
Speaker B:It's to make sure that you're staying in your, your whatever your vertical is or your target must target customer profile.
Speaker B:That tcp.
Speaker B:You know, we don't go back to our old days Ben, where oh let's just go get any account again, you know.
Speaker B:No, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker B:Now we're very specified in what we're looking for size wise and account wise.
Speaker A:And what, what is that?
Speaker A:What is that today?
Speaker A:What is your guys focus today by.
Speaker B:By design, Ben.
Speaker B:Today we do not specialize in vertical.
Speaker B:And that again partly we're just a byproduct of the Bay Area.
Speaker B:We have a lot of startups, non profits but we have a lot of brick and mortar type organizations as well.
Speaker B:But what I really try and focus on is, is like for example we don't even take an account really under $4,000 a month in MRR.
Speaker B:So that's usually about 20 employees.
Speaker B:So because I know that anything under 20 employees and under I know it's going to be probably a low mature organ like operation that's going on and it's like that they're not going to really listen to us.
Speaker B:They're going to be tight on their budget and that's fine.
Speaker B:And I understand that because I was there.
Speaker B:I totally get what they're trying to accomplish.
Speaker B:But usually I'm looking our sweet spot's more around 100 employees that value technology and are willing and see technology as an avenue to really help grow their own organization.
Speaker B:And so that's really what we're focused on.
Speaker B:And now our average client size just last year was 10,000, a little over $10,000 a month.
Speaker B: pany when I close a thousand $: Speaker B:You know it's just, you know, just the evolution of this business.
Speaker A:Very interesting.
Speaker A:And so as you've shifted and gone up market, have you started to offer the core offering?
Speaker A:It sounds like is mostly fully managed.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Are you doing, are you getting into the co managed space at all?
Speaker B:Yeah, by happenstancewear.
Speaker B:But we only sell one offering even to co typically even to co manage.
Speaker B:I mean we don't sell a bronze, silver, gold and all those.
Speaker B:I started that way but after about three years I go this is.
Speaker B:Everybody just goes for the cheapest option and then you're just upselling the whole time.
Speaker B:So sell what you believe is right as would Be my philosophy.
Speaker B:And, and be honest, just this past year, we added a lot of new security into our just one, the ones our stack.
Speaker B:And we had to go back in front of every one of our customers and try and either, you know, upsell them, and I hate using the word upsell because they need this.
Speaker B:Some clients we just gave it to, some we had to say, hey, look, we looked at their profitability, you know, when we have to really try and have true, transparent conversations with them about that and say, look, here's where you're at from a security posturing work.
Speaker B:We're going to start including this in all of our offerings.
Speaker B:You need this.
Speaker B:But the reality has been, yeah, I mean I, there was a handful.
Speaker B:I probably count on two hands, a number of accounts that left us.
Speaker B:But I call that like farming your accounts.
Speaker B:You know, these are not the accounts that are going to get us to my promised land.
Speaker B:So it's okay.
Speaker B:And if they're, if they're looking at this saying, you know what, I really don't want those, those three security tools you're implementing, I don't see the value one.
Speaker B:I'm like, did I do a good enough job of explaining that value?
Speaker B:But they all look at it from a cost lens.
Speaker B:And honestly, the ones that typically left are the ones that I kind of knew would because they were always very, very, very price conscious.
Speaker B:And that's okay.
Speaker B:That's their business that they want to run it.
Speaker B:But, you know, the landscape in our business is getting much more competitive day by day, week by week.
Speaker B:So my.
Speaker B:I always said, I'm like, look, I wish you the best of luck.
Speaker B:I'm like, but eventually you're probably going to be right back in this conversation with another MSP at some point.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:And so I'm curious now about your packaging.
Speaker A:So are you offering a one size fits all or.
Speaker A:That was a unique, hey, we've got a security, you know, upgrade, you know, packaging that, you know, how does that work?
Speaker A:Because I've mostly seen, you know, either packaging everything together and this is what the stack is and or it's the, you know, a la carte.
Speaker A:Hey, you're buying this, you're saying yes or no to these specific products.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's the latter.
Speaker B:It's you, you work with parachute, you get, you get all, you get everything.
Speaker B:Got it.
Speaker A:So it wasn't more of a, hey, we want you to turn this security feature on.
Speaker A:It's more like, hey, this is what the future is going to look like.
Speaker A:Do you want to do you want to come aboard with us?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Do you want to stay with parachute or not?
Speaker B:Like this.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:And the.
Speaker B:Re.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:And Ben, you probably see this in your.
Speaker B:Your business.
Speaker B:We're just seeing too much, like, you know, man in the middle, attack spoofing, you know, you know, not a little bit of ransomware, but really just, you know, wiring, transferring the money out.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And some of the stuff is just so simple to solve, like, just put MFA in.
Speaker B:You know, clients, though, they don't listen.
Speaker B:And it's like we even said, we'll do it for free, you know, and they still.
Speaker B:Their behavior.
Speaker B:They don't want to change it.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And so even to the detriment of their own business.
Speaker B:And we watch this happen just, you know, a few times, and I'm like, this is not.
Speaker B:I don't want to be associated with this.
Speaker B:This is not the.
Speaker B:I don't want to associate myself with clients or customers that don't value the security and the technology that.
Speaker B:And the work that we're doing for them.
Speaker B:And they don't do.
Speaker B:They just didn't.
Speaker B:And that's okay.
Speaker B:That's their business.
Speaker B:They can choose who they want, what they want to do, and who they want to work with.
Speaker B:But I said, because that.
Speaker B:It's about my reputation as well, you know, I don't want to be tied and tethered to a client that didn't listen to us, did not, you know, put mfa, unless you had.
Speaker B:As the example, and then had their CFO accidentally wire or transfer money out to another vendor that really wasn't their vendor.
Speaker B:It's like, you know, sorry.
Speaker B:And especially after we told them, you know, hey, if you do this, this will.
Speaker B:This would actually prevent it.
Speaker B:So that's what prompted this.
Speaker B:And, you know, the term farming of the accounts is used kind of a lot in our industry, and that's exactly what we just got done doing this year.
Speaker B:And again, you mentioned this earlier, Ben.
Speaker B:Was it painful?
Speaker B:Yes, this year was painful.
Speaker B:I'm not going to lie.
Speaker B:Even at the size of the company we're at, it was painful.
Speaker B:But it's necessary to harvest those crops every few years because it'll yield a better crop later on.
Speaker A:That's my belief, 100%.
Speaker A:I couldn't.
Speaker A:Couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's painful.
Speaker B:I think you.
Speaker B:I can see you, Ben, kind of going in your head.
Speaker B:Maybe some stories you even ask.
Speaker A:So I'm like, why?
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:I'm like, why are you.
Speaker A:It feels like you're.
Speaker A:You're inside my brain, like I'm thinking the same thing as you.
Speaker A:I'm like, I can't just be a yes man here, you know?
Speaker A:So, so eos.
Speaker A:So when did you, when did you start doing eos?
Speaker A:And this was, sounds like it was years ago.
Speaker A:You've been, you've been adopting the system for a while?
Speaker B:Yeah, I think we're in our fourth or fifth year of using it and it was bumpy, like most things, getting off the ground with it.
Speaker B:We did bring on a coach, which was a very good decision.
Speaker B:A lot of people try and self implement any of these systems or whether it's EOS or something different, but I find they, they fail pretty quickly.
Speaker B:So I actually think we even thought about or even tried it maybe for a quarter.
Speaker B:I was like, this isn't going to work and hired a consultant to come in.
Speaker B:And it's good.
Speaker B:This is about accountability.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you know, as owners, sometimes we think we're holding ourselves accountable, but when you have someone else, it's not in your business holding you accountable.
Speaker B:Just, it brings a different light to the, to the, to the room, which is much needed, especially with your executives as well.
Speaker B:So we are, yeah, we're, we now are self facilitated.
Speaker B:We, we had our facilitator for about three years and it was about the right time.
Speaker B:We're like, okay, we feel good about where we're at right now.
Speaker B:Um, but that's not to say like, hey, if we keep growing and scaling, maybe we bring another facilitator back in, depending on what our size of makeup starts to look like.
Speaker B:But for now I think we're in a good place.
Speaker B:But, but it was that, that to me was a very transformational period for parachute.
Speaker B:It's something we definitely needed.
Speaker B:And I, it's one of those, I definitely don't call it a regret.
Speaker B:It's just if I had to do it all over again, I would have implemented that or another system into my business because it gave like structure, not for me, but to the company and they need it.
Speaker B:People need structure.
Speaker B:And I thought I was giving it, but not in this manner.
Speaker B:This is very clear, very transparent on how things should work.
Speaker A:And I've heard this.
Speaker A:So my business is, is, is roughly 8 million of revenue.
Speaker A:So I'm like kind of similar, similar size.
Speaker A:We have 35 employees.
Speaker A:You've got 70 or.
Speaker A:And one of the things that I've heard at least from other entrepreneurs who have other businesses kind of in the size ranges, they hit a ceiling with eos and they hit A ceiling and then the tools and the structure kind of break down.
Speaker A:And I've seen a lot of companies transition to other models.
Speaker A:So like a scaling up because I guess it's a bit more complex, a little bit more work, a little bit better for larger companies.
Speaker A:At least that was the perception.
Speaker A:I've seen people's transition.
Speaker A:So I'm curious, has that ever run across your mind at least as, as you've been implementing us, like transitioning to another framework or model.
Speaker B:That's a great point.
Speaker B:And honestly I have not given any thought to it.
Speaker B:My initial thought would be though, if it's not broken, don't fix it.
Speaker B:And so for me it's not broken.
Speaker B:It's working for us even today.
Speaker B:I'm not going to try and fix something that's not, doesn't need fixing.
Speaker B:And I, you know, and just the seat that I'm in now, it's easy for me to see what's happening in my company.
Speaker B:More of a bird's eye view.
Speaker B:I can just go into level 10 meetings and even just see the notes.
Speaker B:I can, I can just easily see what was discussed in a 90 minute meeting once a week and, and get what I need from it versus let me go pick up the phone, call a manager and things along those I can get a lot of information.
Speaker B:So it's helpful, it's helpful for me.
Speaker B:And you know, I've also found that, you know, one of the struggles that I've had as a leader as we scale is communication and an organization.
Speaker B:Also we have, we have about 30 employees in the Philippines.
Speaker B:We have U.S.
Speaker B:employees throughout the U.S.
Speaker B:you know most are concentrated here in the Bay Area, but, but we're very diversified, especially Postco.
Speaker B:It's you know, as we all are experiencing that.
Speaker B:So how do you communicate and versus getting everybody in your office the challenge for a lot of CEOs out there.
Speaker B:And so one of the things is, is EOS has actually helped with that because in the level 10 means I can cascade messages throughout.
Speaker B:Meaning that in every level 10 and everybody in my company they are part of at least one level 10 every week.
Speaker B:So messaging can be flowing through the organization a lot easier than we still do other things like huddles.
Speaker A:And so what does that look like?
Speaker A:You've got, you've got like 10 things every week that people like what's the volume of stuff that you're shooting throughout the organization?
Speaker A:Like what does that look like?
Speaker B:Like we have for example we have like a learn and training development team.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so that Team alone.
Speaker B:All they're doing is building content like we call them playbooks at Parachute.
Speaker B:So it could be a playbook around our security offering.
Speaker B:But everybody has to take the training, for example.
Speaker B:So it's like, hey, you know, we, you know, every week you could cascade a message.
Speaker B:Hey, we're at, you have three weeks to complete your training.
Speaker B:We're at 75% with one week left.
Speaker B:And that goes out to the whole company.
Speaker B:That's kind of more of like, oh, you could be one of those people like, oh, I have one more week.
Speaker B:It wasn't even on my radar, even though I have a ticket on my calendar.
Speaker B:But you know, humans are humans.
Speaker B:They forget to do things.
Speaker B:So it's just another reminder, right?
Speaker B:That's one thing.
Speaker B:Another thing could be, you know, obviously sales and marketing related issues.
Speaker B:We have internal newsletters that we'll post and cascade as messages throughout.
Speaker B:We've had to use a lot of like a multi pronged approach to communication because one, there's no silver bullet to communicate, especially in a large, diverse organization.
Speaker A:Yeah, 100.
Speaker A:100%.
Speaker A:And it.
Speaker A:My last company before I sold my last company was in a healthcare and healthcare industry.
Speaker A:We got up to 150 employees.
Speaker A:So we definitely broke around like the 100 employee mark.
Speaker A:Communication wise.
Speaker A:We're like, all right, we got to do this completely different because no one knows what's going on.
Speaker B:How'd they handle it if I didn't.
Speaker A:Ask, man, it was, it was, it was repetition, it was systems, it was expectations.
Speaker A:For what, what needs to come from senior management and then what needs to come from the individual department d departmental leaders.
Speaker A:So like create, like creating a processor out of it.
Speaker A:There wasn't like a clear process for communication.
Speaker A:It was like, okay, this has been working.
Speaker A:And then when it started to not work, then I was like, okay, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta fix this.
Speaker A:So like what's the best way to do this?
Speaker A:Okay, now let's cascade stuff this way.
Speaker A:It just hits another different threshold because you had a point in your company where like you don't know everyone, right?
Speaker A:At a 30 person company you can know everyone on an intimate basis, but once you get past maybe 50, 60 employees, right, it was 70 employees.
Speaker A:Like we were hiring people and like I had met them in the one on one and I hadn't talked to them in four months, right?
Speaker A:And so it was just like you, you get some distance as like the owner and as the management.
Speaker A:Sometimes, you know, for better or for worse as you grow and it just gets more Stark, the larger you get.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Well said.
Speaker B:I struggle with that, Ben.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:Today, I struggle with that because I still want to have that, that touch to every employee.
Speaker B:And it's hard, but I still think that's an Elmo problem than anything else.
Speaker B:I just have to make the time.
Speaker B:But time becomes more scarce as you get bigger, 100%.
Speaker A:So with parachute, you had referenced earlier that you didn't really have a clear idea of, hey, where are you going to be going with this company?
Speaker A:What do you want to do with this?
Speaker A:I'm curious, do you.
Speaker A:Do you have like a five year plan in place?
Speaker A:Like this is where we want to go, or is it a little bit more mushy?
Speaker B:Well, we have our vto, which is another term, you know, vision traction organizer in eos.
Speaker B:Right now we're at a place where we're just, we're at a.
Speaker B:I wouldn't call it an inflection point, but we're trying to figure that.
Speaker B:We are actually having.
Speaker B:We have our annual meetings coming up here in January discussing exactly that.
Speaker B:Um, you know, what, what is our next step?
Speaker B:Especially with the.
Speaker B:There's been so much movement in, you know, with private equity coming into our industry.
Speaker B:It's, do you want to be acquired or you want to do the acquiring or do nothing or, you know, we've grown organically the whole time and be very successful.
Speaker B:One thing that, you know, I've.
Speaker B:I've talked to, you know, my team about is staying private.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:And it's not for my own personal reasons.
Speaker B:Just we're, you know, I'm okay taking less home.
Speaker B:EBITDA wise, you know, if it's, you know, giving back to my team or company, you know, my, my, my employees, you know, where that might not always be the case if I'm rolled up or, or I don't have that control.
Speaker B:It's not about the money for.
Speaker B:I know, for me it's.
Speaker B:It's about the journey and providing for 70 people and their families.
Speaker B:Like, that's, that's what gets me up in the morning.
Speaker B:You know, the money will be there if you just have your, your hearts behind it.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So when you ask about where are we going in your next three to five years, hopefully just keep doing what we're doing, which is, you know, trying to grow double digit every year, top line revenue.
Speaker B:But I'm much more focused, Ben, than ever on shifting that mindset from.
Speaker B:It's not about top line revenue as much as it is the bottom line because.
Speaker B:Or the bottom line.
Speaker B:I can provide More to, to all those around me.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker A:You talked about acquisitions and growing organically.
Speaker A:So I, I entered to the industry by acquiring an existing operation and I recently did an add on acquisition too.
Speaker A:So obviously that's different set of challenges than focused on growing organically.
Speaker A:Why, why not go the acquisition route?
Speaker B:Funny.
Speaker B:My chief operating officer, that's what he wants to do.
Speaker B:So we do, we, we, we're on two sides of that.
Speaker B:I, I, you know, I think it's two things, I mean, at least in my situation.
Speaker B:One, it's, you know, my vision is probably a little different than my chief operating officers.
Speaker B:And that's just where we're at in life.
Speaker B:You know, you have to ask yourself what.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm still young, I'm only 50, but my kids are all in high school about, you know, so I see where my, and I have three kids that are in that high school range.
Speaker B:So where he's got two young kids, that one hasn't even hit first grade yet.
Speaker B:So when you look at like, like what, what do you want out of your life?
Speaker B:And he's only a few years younger than me, but I'm like, yeah.
Speaker B:So I have two different trajectories where he's like, I want to start acquiring, you know, and, and his background's in M and A, so it's right up, you know, it's kind of fills his cup.
Speaker B:But these, these are conversations we have to have.
Speaker B:So I don't think there's a right or wrong.
Speaker B:It's, it's honestly, it's probably me letting go of the vine a little bit.
Speaker B:And I recognize that, getting comfortable with the uncomfortable because I've never done it.
Speaker B:But at the same time I also, you know, don't want to be, you know, we have a really good thing the way we've been handling it.
Speaker B:And so I say, why again, why change it?
Speaker B:That's kind of the, the other side of the coin that I kind of always ask myself.
Speaker B:But, but you know, in two years from now or something, like, I wouldn't be surprised if we're having that conversation.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker B:It's not on our roadmap for this this year that I know.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker A:And where do you think?
Speaker A:I guess your management team.
Speaker A:I guess that's 70 employees.
Speaker A:Can you, can you describe what that looks like and what are the different roles?
Speaker A:I think one thing that is not very transparent to a lot of people is organizational structure.
Speaker A:As you get bigger and, and what does it look like?
Speaker A:And what are the people?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And what do those roles look like?
Speaker A:I think that's super helpful as people are growing their own company.
Speaker B:We have an executive leadership team which is com.
Speaker B:Comprises of five individuals.
Speaker B:Myself is on that as well.
Speaker B:And we're really, we're not, we're not making decisions really necessarily operationally.
Speaker B:It's about the entity parachute itself.
Speaker B:And that could be from exactly do we want to do M and A.
Speaker B:Like we're not having that conversation at the management and director level.
Speaker B:The management director level are.
Speaker B:Includes those same five people, but then also about another, I think four individuals.
Speaker B:And those departments look anything from obviously service delivery, professional services delivery, you know, sales and marketing delivery.
Speaker B:We have a security then we also have our network operations team that kind of also rolls into our security operations team as well.
Speaker B:They're kind of intertwined.
Speaker B:And then we also have our account management director as well and then our like chief operating officer and then the other executives above that and the finance and accounting as well, our representatives there as well.
Speaker B:I mean that kind of fills out truthfully where we're overstaffed right now.
Speaker B:We're kind of built and designed today as like a $14 million company.
Speaker B:So we have a lot of.
Speaker B:We can grow into what we have.
Speaker B:This goes back to that curve jump.
Speaker B:Like we're, we're already overstaffed and I know that like, you know, but we can grow into this now.
Speaker B: ew hires really over a really: Speaker B:Especially at the leadership level.
Speaker B:Leadership level.
Speaker B:We probably have a run rate of another $4 million.
Speaker B:They're good people and I want to keep them on my team and I know that we can then grow into it.
Speaker B:So that's awesome.
Speaker B:That's kind of the makeup of our director management teams.
Speaker A:Ben, that is, that is really cool because that, that is one of the questions that in back of my mind is your staffing level relative to your revenue.
Speaker A:I was like, oh, seems a little high.
Speaker A:I wonder what the composition of those people are because when you add in global talent too, that can, that can really increase.
Speaker A:That can increase headcount, not increase cost as much too, but still.
Speaker A:No, that makes, that makes complete sense.
Speaker A:That makes complete sense.
Speaker B:We are definitely.
Speaker B:Have you ever looked at like, you know, people.
Speaker B:People are familiar with like W2 multipliers?
Speaker B:You know, we are, we're not in a good, good shape there.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:But, but I understand the why and I'm And I'm again, as a private, privately run organization, I'm okay with the why, you know, where that may not be the case if I was part of a, you know, a platform.
Speaker A:That's, that's the beauty of, of being owners.
Speaker A:And we can run the business the way that we want for the long term.
Speaker A:We don't have to think about the short term, we don't have to think about our investors.
Speaker A:We like, we can, we can just do what's right for the business and for us, which is like really empowering, right?
Speaker A:Like you're like, I can do this because we, we feel like it as a company that independence is really, really powerful.
Speaker A:And I feel like I've had a thought that like us as individual owners in this like mid size range, we're just poised to do great things because we have that mindset and flexibility if you've got those tools and structure in place, right?
Speaker A:You think like we do.
Speaker A:Like, I'm like, I would, I would bet you're gonna win, right?
Speaker A:I'd be like, can I put money in with you?
Speaker A:Because you're exactly, I'm like, you're gonna win.
Speaker A:So like I just don't know how much.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's like really cool to see.
Speaker A:But like how can we take that to the next level too, right?
Speaker A:Like how, how can we foster that, have a greater impact on what we do as you know, I mean you're looking out in the competition, right?
Speaker A:Private equity and the way in which they run their businesses, the way in which they treat employees like, some are great, some are terrible.
Speaker A:So it's, you know, it really depends.
Speaker A:I mean same, same can be said for owners.
Speaker A:But what's been your experience with private equity in the industry?
Speaker A:Like, like where have you seen them creeping in?
Speaker A:What, what's been your thought there?
Speaker B:You know, it's just, you know, I, first of all, I go out and I meet with a lot of private equity because I want, I want to understand it.
Speaker B:It's, you know, educating ourselves in this very fast paced industry.
Speaker B:So I think for people that are afraid of it, don't lean into it and learn from it.
Speaker B:Whether that's, you know, learning, hey, what, what is my, how does the world see and value parachute?
Speaker B:You know, look at it from those lines.
Speaker B:Doesn't mean you're going to sell.
Speaker B:It means, hey, let's have the conversation, let's talk about it.
Speaker B:But also for me, I'm also learning, okay, I'm learning how they are approaching this.
Speaker B:What, what is their strategy?
Speaker B:What are their tactics and because if I am ever going to put that hat on, I, I can now look at, I have a body of work that I can look over over dozens of platforms that I've talked to.
Speaker B:So that's kind of my approach to it as far as platforms rolling up.
Speaker B:I mean, I, I use it as an advantage, you know, and I do believe it to be true.
Speaker B:It's like when I'm talking to other owners of business, small businesses, I'm like, I'm privately owned.
Speaker B:You're talking to the owner.
Speaker B:I mean, when you're talking to a platform, are you talking to the CEO of the platform?
Speaker B:I highly doubt it.
Speaker B:You may be talking to the CEO of that, you know, that organization, whatever, wherever they're located.
Speaker B:But, but I kind of talk through that with other, with potential customers of ours as well.
Speaker B:What are the pros and cons?
Speaker B:And there are pros and cons.
Speaker B:I mean, do they have greater depth and breadth?
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:But do they have boots on the ground that could be in your office, you know, right away, those types of things?
Speaker B:So I don't think it's, I don't think it's a bad thing.
Speaker B:I don't think it's necessarily a good thing.
Speaker B:I think it just is what it is and it's, it's definitely here.
Speaker B:It's not going anywhere and it's, it's just part of the process.
Speaker B:I, I just encourage all, all learners what, no matter what side you are, to learn about it and educate yourself.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker A:And as we wrap stuff up, what is, is there anything else you think we should talk about?
Speaker B:Experience wise, you know, experience wise, you know, we kind of, we didn't maybe touch on it too much, but just really at a high level for those especially smaller owner, you know, smaller businesses that are very technically focused owners and there's many, many, many of those that are out there.
Speaker B:If business isn't your strength, that's okay.
Speaker B:Like, just accept that.
Speaker B:But get, hire people to do that work for you and focus on what you love is you'll lose your passion really fast in this industry if you're doing stuff that you don't like to do.
Speaker B:So find what you like to do.
Speaker B:You still be the owner, that's okay.
Speaker B:But you can get people to run.
Speaker B:And I know many, many MSPs where they've hired a CEO, for example, and they just wanted to be the project guy still, and that's okay.
Speaker B:Like, so just.
Speaker B:But if you want to be the CEO and be thing, you know, get educated, get smart, um, start to learn all this.
Speaker B:This goes back to, like, be a part of a peer group, um, that'll help strengthen you.
Speaker B:Um, there's a.
Speaker B:You know, I.
Speaker B:I'll leave.
Speaker B:I work.
Speaker B:Work short on time, but I kind of always like to leave with a quote, Ben, which was, you know, the Peanuts, Charlie Brown, you remember Linus.
Speaker B:Linus had a quote.
Speaker B:There's no heavier burden than a great potential.
Speaker B:And when you think about that, just stop and think about that.
Speaker B:It's like, we all have this great potential.
Speaker B:That's our burden as owners and your organization, it has great potential, but it's a burden.
Speaker B:And that burden is on us.
Speaker B:As a CEO, it's a heavy burden sometimes.
Speaker B:And sometimes you need people around you to help carry that burden.
Speaker B:So surround yourself with great minds, and it takes a lot of that burden off you, because I know that everybody out there feels it.
Speaker B:I do.
Speaker B:So me.
Speaker A:Me as well.
Speaker A:Me as well.
Speaker A:Trying to get those.
Speaker A:Trying to get excellent people around me, investing in them, making sure that they know they're doing great and that they're cared for, and, you know, they become the biggest, biggest advocate.
Speaker A:So that's the.
Speaker A:That's really cool to see.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker A:Well, appreciate your time, and hopefully we'll talk again soon.
Speaker B:Love it.
Speaker B:Ben, thank you so much.
Speaker B:Appreciate.
